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Number 286
September October 2000

"Fallen Western Star" Revisited
Two 'Western' Writers Talk
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

In the Hungry Mind Review's Winter 1999--2000 issue, poet and critic Dana Gioia, author of Can Poetry Matter?, published an essay titled "Fallen Western Star: San Francisco as a Literary Region." The magazine, which has since changed its name to the Ruminator Review, sought the essay for a special issue on literary regions of the country. The piece created a minor uproar, both pro and con. In the previous issue of Poetry Flash, #285, Associate Editor Richard Silberg questioned the essay and examined some of the assumptions it contained in an essay of his own. Springing immediately to Dana Gioia's defense was poet, critic and Contributing Editor Jack Foley, whose new collection of reviews and essays (some of them previously published in the Poetry Flash), O Powerful Western Star: Poetry & Art in California (Pantograph) carries Dana Gioia's Introduction. Dana Gioia has chosen not to comment. [For a copy of the original Gioia essay, contact Ruminator Review, 1648 Grand Avenue, St. Paul, MN 55105; (651) 699-2610. Back copies are $4, subscriptions are $14 for one year/four issues.]---Editor

INDEX

On "Fallen Western Star":
Dana Gioia Stirs it Up in the Hungry Mind Review
RICHARD SILBERG
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

The Black Hole of Criticism:
Richard Silberg on Dana Gioia's "Fallen Western Star"
JACK FOLEY
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

Richard Silberg Responds
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

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The Black Hole of Criticism:
Richard Silberg on Dana Gioia's "Fallen Western Star"

JACK FOLEY
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

"I'm teaching my students to publish in New York."
---A teacher at New College of California

Richard Silberg and I are friends who often disagree on esthetic matters. Usually we let it go at that---different strokes for different folks. We respect and admire each other's work, and that's usually enough. I think Richard Silberg is a brilliant poet and critic, and I enjoy reading his work whether I agree with it or not. In this case, however, I felt impelled to write back.

Dana Gioia has referred to himself as a "contrarian." His "Fallen Western Star" (Ruminator Review, formerly Hungry Mind Review, Winter 1999--2000) seems to me an enormously challenging article with historical implications of considerable interest. Thank the lord that somebody has finally said something about this problem. Gioia's piece is a breath of fresh air.

Like the earlier responses of Jonah Raskin ("Local Literary Scene Is Worth Celebrating," The Press Democrat, 12/15/99) and ZYZZYVA's Howard Junker, whose letter to Ruminator Review is both hilarious and substanceless ("I don't publish criticism, because I don't want to"), Richard Silberg's article misses both the point and the challenge of "Fallen Western Star": what he sees is a dark star, even---to make the metaphor a little more accurate---a black hole.

There's a personal element here as well. "Fallen Western Star" begins with a reference to my book, O Powerful Western Star and to the line in Whitman's "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd" which gave me my title. Dana's introduction to O Powerful Western Star---written despite the fact of our being in very different esthetic camp---is generous to me personally and begins to raise some of the issues which show up in "Fallen Western Star":


Richard's opening sentence, "After twenty years in New York, most of them building a career as a businessman to support an impressive second career as a poet, translator, and critic, Dana Gioia returned with his family to California, his native state, to live in 1996," suggests that Dana has been out of touch with California. Later, Silberg writes, "I'd advise Dana Gioia to settle in, open up his eyes and ears, because he really doesn't get it." Doesn't he, though.

During his stay on the east coast, Dana made many trips to California, where he has family. Indeed, all his family lives in California. In addition, he is not exactly a newcomer: he has been here for nearly five years. (He arrived in January 1996.) Isn't that enough time to get a sense of what's going on? Certainly Boise State University's Western Writers Series (which includes monographs on people such as John Muir, Bret Harte, Zane Grey, Robinson Jeffers, Gary Snyder and Simon Ortiz) regards Dana as a Western writer: April Lindner, the author of the monograph on Dana, has much to say about him as a Westerner. For Raskin, Junker and Silberg, the fact that Dana doesn't agree with them means that he must be missing something. If he weren't missing something, he would agree with them! That is an indication of their tolerance for genuine disagreement: he's just an outsider, don't listen to him, he's been in New York for twenty years. As it happens, Dana phoned me to read passages from "Fallen Western Star" as he was writing it---and to ask my opinion about certain points. He phoned others as well, such as Kevin Berger, the senior editor of San Francisco Magazine and a lifelong Bay Area resident. Whatever Silberg thinks about Dana's qualifications to be writing about the West, I don't believe he would describe Berger or me as outsiders. He knows very well that I have been in the midst of the poetry scene for the past fifteen years or so. And I agree with Dana's essay.

Richard attempts to discredit Dana by asserting that "he has a penchant for provocative half-truths, and in driving those home he sometimes misses what's right before his eyes." Again the implication is that if Dana understood the whole truth he would agree with Richard. Richard then goes on to a long and not very compelling discussion of the difference between fiction and poetry. "Fiction and poetry don't differ just economically," he writes, 
There is much to object to in this confused passage. Does Richard really mean to imply that narrative, characterization exposition and action exist in a novel apart from its language? Has he never read narrative poems like The Iliad or Paradise Lost or Yeats' The Wandering of Oisin---some of the works currently being produced by Neo-Formalists? What I find most obtuse in the passage, however, is Richard's bland assertion that "There are fiction readings, certainly, but their audiences don't really 'learn' much from the reading that they wouldn't experience by reading the book at home." I suggest that Richard listen to Jack Kerouac reading from On the Road on a recently released Rykodisc CD or hunt up the marvelous recording of James Joyce reading from Finnegans Wake. One can learn a great deal from those renditions, and the last I heard, both On the Road and Finnegans Wake were novels. Talk about half-truths!

Another example of half-truth in Richard's article is the moment when he complains about Dana's choice of Thom Gunn's The Man with Night Sweats and Kay Ryan's Flamingo Watching as among the "Ten San Francisco Literary Classics." Gioia, writes Silberg, is "a New Formalist, himself, and these two poets, Gunn and Ryan, both do a lot of their work in closed forms." Well, Keats and Shelley did a lot of their work in closed forms, too. But, apart from that, Gunn's poetry is activated by a tension between closed and open forms, which exist in an uneasy relationship in his work---as they do in Gioia's. A lot of what Gunn writes is free verse. As for Ryan, she does not write in closed forms at all: Richard is simply wrong about this. This is Ryan's "Half a Loaf." It is one of the poems in Flamingo Watching, and its technique is no different from that of other poems in the book or from Ryan's work generally:

The whole loaf's loft
is halved in profile,
like the standing side
of a bombed cathedral
 

The cut face
of half a loaf
puckers a little.

The bread cells
are open and brittle
like touching coral.

It is nothing like the middle
of an uncut loaf,
nothing like a conceptual half
which stays moist.

I say do not adjust to half
unless you must.

There is some interesting and subtle rhyming in Ryan's poem (My favorite is "moist" and "must.") Perhaps that's why Richard considered it to be a closed form. But it is not a closed form. It is free verse: it is not metrically consistent, and it is not trying to be. I would suggest that Richard consult Lewis Turco's The Book of Forms to find out what a closed form is. What is it he says about Dana? That "he sometimes misses what's right before his eyes"?

Like Raskin and Junker before him, Richard indulges in cheerleading for his team: "How about Robert Hass, our Laureate from the 'hood, generally recognized as one of the key poets of these last several decades in America? How about the radiant Brenda Hillman with her sweet blending of lyric and postmoderism? How about June Jordan or Diane di Prima? Barbara Guest?"

How about it, guys. Let's hear it for all of them. Gioia's essay asserts that there are many, many fine writers in the Bay Area. He is extremely explicit about this. His point, however, is that they don't talk to one another, that there is no means by which they can discuss issues of vital importance to their work. Does Richard believe that Barbara Guest phones up June Jordan to talk about her latest poem? Poetry Flash is virtually the only outlet for local criticism. "Western literary life…tends to be private and individualistic," writes Gioia. "Writers live far apart, and there are few occasions that bring them together in significant numbers." How does Richard handle this? The Bay Area, he says,
 
The fact of writers "streaming across country" from New York to teach us how to write is hardly an example of the vitality of local culture. Nor are visiting professors or people on book tours who stop at the Bay Area among other places. More of Silberg's cheerleading. But you will notice that, here and elsewhere in the article, Richard doesn't name any of the intellectual issues that arise out of all this activity. If there is all this exchange going on---"readings, residencies, workshops, festivals, and conferences"---what are the people attending them talking about? What are the issues that define us as Westerners? Richard is silent on that because, evidently, he doesn't know. Surely out of an this mishmash something must be coming, right? But is it?

Richard's ignorance of a genuine Western tradition is particularly striking in his remarks about Edwin Markham and about Gioia's discussion of Markham's poem, "The Man with the Hoe." "Well, I'm sorry, folks," Richard writes,

But Gioia is not the only person to find Markham, and particularly that poem, to be quintessentially Western. First published in 1976, William Everson's Archetype West: The Pacific Coast as a Literary Region is a brilliant examination of the coinciding of literature and region. "Markham," writes Everson, "is no longer highly regarded. He was, however, the first poet of the West to produce a poem that has entered world literature. Seventy years after its composition 'The Man with the Hoe' is still read and believed around the world." Everson even cites a connection---though not a direct, literary one---between "The Man with the Hoe" and Ginsberg's "Howl." Everson is writing of the forties:
 
Surely a poem to which Everson devotes so much of his book deserves better than Richard's curt dismissal of it as "wonderfully suited for political sloganeering." In his remarks about Markham, Dana Gioia attempts to recreate something of the consciousness with which the poem---which galvanized people world-wide---was received at the time of its initial appearance. He shows ways in which the poem might still interest contemporary readers. Richard treats "The Man with the Hoe" as if it were written last Friday; his dismissal of it is fairly well-written and somewhat amusing---as is the article generally---but it is also woefully ignorant and wildly unfair.

There are many other things to quarrel with in Richard's article, but I want to conclude with a wonderful passage of Dana's about his experience of being a Western writer. Much of the passage appears in "Fallen Western Star," so Richard has read a good deal of it. He may even have read it when it first appeared in Heyday Books' The Geography of Home. What I am quoting here is the form in which I first encountered it. Despite its length, I immediately included it in O Powerful Western Star. It seemed to me like something that needed to be said but had not been said. It seemed as well to arise out of a powerful understanding of what it means to live in the West, "I am Latin (Italian, Mexican, and American Indian)," writes Gioia,

I find that statement to be not only true but of an unmatched lyricism and eloquence. We ought to be trying to respond to the questions Dana Gioia's eloquent and enlightening essay gives rise to. Instead, we make fools of ourselves by pretending what he is telling us doesn't exist---and, like Richard Silberg, we see little but darkness.

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Richard Silberg Responds:
Copyright © 2000 Poetry Flash

Maybe we can make a little progress by separating the questions.

Is the Bay Area a vital, influential poetry scene? I think the answer to that question has got to be yes. I'd guess Jack would agree, if he could unhook his response from his zeal to defend Dana. There's no center of influence today in American poetry, geographically, as the Northeast was, for instance, among Modernists at the beginning of the twentieth century, or critically, as in the reign of the New Criticism into mid-century. Today, influence is multi-centered; poets are highly mobile; different poetries are highly interactive. But if you could take an infra-red photograph from the first reaches of space, high above the fray, the two major hot spots in America---virtually beyond question---would be New York and the Bay Area.

"The presence of Kenneth Rexroth Place and Jack Kerouac Street hardly compensate for the absence of current literary vitality." "Today San Francisco is no longer an active literary center, merely a geographical one for the dozens of important writers living in and around it." Those two separate quotes from "Fallen Western Star" sum up Dana's answer, and that was the bone in my throat when I read his essay. His voice is an important one; there are literary stakes, particularly among young poets deciding where they want to put their fire. So I felt he had to be answered. Now, is there a dearth of criticism in the Bay Area? Should we welcome new journals onto the set? The answer to that question clearly ought to be yes as well.

But, for me, with two provisos.

First of all, it's axiomatic to Dana that the health of a literary region rests upon the health of its literary milieu, with a special emphasis on major literary journals. His assessment of the Bay Area is virtually a deduction from that principle. So I took pains to refute it.

One would never guess from Jack's response that I'd made any substantive arguments---he seems to be tiptoeing around the central point---but, actually, I made several. For the sake of space, let's distill them to one: the last two revolutions in American poetry, its profound quakes and shakes at mid-century and the narrower but still crucially important advent of Language poetry in the seventies and eighties, rolled forth without input from, in fact, against the grain of the literary establishments of their respective days. We're talking about what are certainly among the most influential, most powerful poetries of the later twentieth century, Beat, Black Mountain, New York School, Language, and the magnificent mavericks swarming in and thereabouts. Q.E.D.: There's no calculation of major journals, editors, agents that adds up to the life of a poetry.

My second proviso is more wide-ranging, and so it has the advantage of opening out our discussion---because I'm acutely conscious that for many of our readers, in LA, for instance, or Seattle, or New Mexico, this fine tooth back and forth on the merits or demerits of Bay Area poetry is just a local dustup. I'm sensing that Dana and I have rather different ideas of the function of criticism, with Jack seeming to side with Dana---although, actually, while he's under the impression that he's arguing Dana's point of view, on at least one point I think he's wangling way out on his own. So I'd like, briefly, to ponder one more question: just what is it we're expecting criticism to do for us?

Dana says quite a few things about criticism in "Fallen Western Star," but let me focus on two. "Cities create artistic excellence by setting up standards to recognize and acclaim it." And just before that, "Lacking a vital critical milieu, well-intentioned regional literati usually practice boosterism---the uncritical praise of all things local." Together, those two statements set up separate realms, criticism and poetry, with criticism demanding, refining, forming what seems to be an impulsive but ignorant---again, just above the last quote he speaks of "The informed and demanding discussion fostered by quarterlies and other serious journals"---poetry. It's an attitude that gives critics a lot of credit and poets rather little, criticism as trainer and poetry as dog, so to speak.

Jack's ideas about criticism feel more duplex---in great part, I think, because of his contortions as self-appointed defender of Dana. There's a certain echoing of Dana's formative criticism idea, particularly in the sentence with which he ends that section of his response: "Surely out of all this mish-mash something must be coming right? But is it?" implying, it would seem, that the mere activities of poets, the "readings, residencies, workshops, festivals, and conferences" to which his word "mish-mash" refers could hardly be shapely, could hardly be defining themselves in any important way without the above "informed and demanding discussion"---and I feel an uncharacteristic disdain radiating in Jack's "mish-mash" word choice.

The main idea his section puts forth, though, I would say, is the following: "His [Dana's] point, however, is that they don't talk to one another…Does Richard believe that Barbara Guest phones up June Jordan to talk about her latest poem?" I'm much more friendly to that idea of criticism as a medium for poets' mutually informing discussion. The only problem is that it isn't Dana's---it's Jack's, either a previous good idea, or one born out of his strained argumentative necessities.

Dana does say in his essay that Western writers don't talk to each other, but he's not referring to 'talk' through essays back and forth in 'major literary journals', nor to a kind of indirect discourse in which perceptive critics argue or synthesize widely differing poetics so that poets can understand each others' positions better. Weirdly, Dana means actual talk, itself. "Western literary life…tends to be private and individualistic…Writers live far apart, and there are few occasions that bring them together in significant numbers." Jack quotes Dana in his response, deadpan, although he knows perfectly well it ain't remotely so---he, himself, has starred in inimitable person at quite a few of those "readings...festivals...conferences." Thence Dana's inexplicable misperception of Bay Area poetry, solitary, forest and freeway, transmutes to a rich, strange Habermasian idea of criticism.

Perhaps disingenuous, too, for all its sparkle. Very likely none of us besides Guest and Jordan knows what they've actually said to each other about poetry. But, of course, Jack's speaking metonymically, taking them as representative of writers with widely separated poetics. And he suggests this idea that criticism can cross the gap, help them to poetic discussion. I think he knows, though, that poets are not that different from other people when it comes to differences, political, say, or religious: poets tend to break into groups according to poetics and to do most of their talking with their own. Just where, I wonder, does Jack think this kind of cross-poetic dialogue is taking place? In New York, with all its journals and literary infrastructure? Is there, for instance, a lively colloquy between the Nuyorican Poets Cafe and the Poetry Society of America? Is it happening on the pages of the Hudson Review, Sewanee Review, the New York Review of Books? No, it's not, and I'm guessing that he knows that. It is happening in some places, though. I think the American Poetry Review in recent years has tried to become more of a bridging journal. And it's happening, to a certain extent in these pages---as Jack, himself, says---and very much with his help as one of our contributing editors. Poetry Flash, without any undue horn tooting, is a journal right here in the Bay Area, but serving a much wider area, that tries to bring poetries together.

We could talk a lot more about interaction between poetic schools, about places like Naropa and New College of California, for instance, but I want to get back to Dana's actual criticism, which is, as I've said, formative, disciplinary, one summed up for me by a phrase that critics often use, a phrase that's always irritated me, the book 'under review'.

Let me suggest another possibility, really another pole of the critical sphere. Poetry is inherently shapely, and shape-making; further, in its developing, changing 'nature'---a problematic, essentialist word, but I'm trying to be brief---it's sublimely wise. As I suggested in my response to Dana, poets are usually also critics, and if we stop to think about it, most of what we really know, core knowledge in the sense of pithy ideas about poetry, comes not from critics but from poets. Think of Coleridge, Arnold, of Pound and Eliot, Surrealist and Futurist manifestos and elaborations, Olson and Creeley, Language critics, so many others. Think of 'organic form'; composing not according to the 'metronome' but in the cadence of the 'musical phrase'; 'objective correlative'; 'lower limit speech, upper limit music'; 'open field composition'; obviously, this could go pages and pages.

On the other hand, when I think of criticism that's really meant something to me, it tends to work either 'above' or 'below' this core knowledge formulated by poets, and, of course, the poetry itself. Above, we have the work of critics like Kenneth Burke, say, Northrop Frye, even Harold Bloom or Paul de Man, although his deconstructionist ideas also deeply irritate me. These men are writing a meta-criticism, reflections on literature in planes that really parallel philosophy or religion. Below, there's a mode of criticism exemplified by Hugh Kenner in his great books on Pound, on Eliot and Beckett. Kenner's books don't stand in judgment over their subjects; instead, they breathe forth these writers' spirits; they are profound appreciations. Many of Jack's fine essays are criticism of this type.

So, what about criticism of books 'above review'? What about criticism that learns from poetry, that approaches it in a loving openness? And I don't mean by that a ga-ga servility, critics with something mushy or worshipful to say about everything they read. I don't mean not having standards; I'm talking about the attitude that poetry knows more than the critic does, so that one's standards are in flux as poetry is in flux. That's not very different, really, from the way scientists approach their material: they don't prejudge their data; they're informed by it.

There's some unfairness in what I'm saying. I've learned a good deal from reading Dana, and I think he's often perceptive. To finish the sentence about "informed and demanding discussion" that I cut off above, he thinks it "helps readers understand and evaluate new literary work." I'm all for that. I want good poets and their publishers to find good readers. I want us all to boogie. But, as I've already said, I'm troubled by the section in "Fallen Western Star" where Dana tries to type Bay Area poetry on "The Man with the Hoe." I'm bugged by pronouncements like, "Poetry was not conceived as a self-enclosed text for private meditation but as a direct address to an audience." There are a lot of fine poets around here with a very different take on that. I feel somewhat pinched by the way Dana and Jack harp on 'regional' writing and the West. I'm not at all sure that that concept carries much water anymore in these fast traveling, electronic times.

My second proviso, then: let's have new critical journals; let's have 'major' journals, but let them be open to the heavenly buzz, to the boogie profusion. Let them appreciate poetry that they love, or meditate on it, rather than pronounce upon it or train it to be the good poetry dog they pre-desire.

Those, I think, are the central issues. The questions from Jack's response are still hanging, though, his various skirmishing points. But my feeling is that we've already devoted enough precious print space to this debate, maybe too much. Is "The Man with the Hoe" in fact a bit clichéd and sentimental, or not? Does poetry have a special relationship with public readings, a central relationship intrinsic to poetic practice, that fiction really doesn't, or not? Was Dana's choice of Thom Gunn and Kay Ryan as the two star poets of the Bay Area rather narrow and programmatic in its taste, or not? These essays are available, Dana's, mine, Jack's---to the extent that they're of interest, a good thing. Why not let interested readers make up their minds on it all for themselves?

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